马岩松设计费:连线健康专家：糖是有毒物质，应控制糖的摄入量

Your lecture on sugar has been viewed more than 1.6 million times on YouTube. Why do you think it's had so much attention?

记者：已经有160多万人在YouTube网站上观看了您有关健康吃糖的讲座。您是如何看待人们如此关注这个话题的呢？

The obesity epidemic just gets worse and people are looking for answers. Diet and exercise don't work and the idea that obesity is about personal responsibility has come into question. Many people have said sugar is bad, but they didn't supply the biochemistry. I supplied that.

勒斯蒂格：原因是肥胖症的流行趋势变得越来越糟了，人们也迫切地想得到答案。饮食和锻炼不起作用。肥胖需要个人负责的想法也存在问题。许多人都在说糖是坏东西，但他们又讲不出更深的科学道理，但在这里，我可以告诉大家。

Do you think fructose - which along with glucose makes table sugar - drives obesity?

记者：大家都知道果糖和葡萄糖结合构成我们日常食用的蔗糖，那么您认为肥胖是由果糖引起的吗？

I don't think fructose is the cause of obesity, but I do think it is the thing that takes you from obesity to metabolic syndrome, and that's where the healthcare dollars go - diabetes, hypertension and cardiovascular disease.

勒斯蒂格：我认为导致肥胖的原因不在果糖。但我确实认为果糖会让你从肥胖转向代谢综合征。代谢综合征的临床表现就是糖尿病、高血压和心血管疾病。它也是医疗保健行业重点投入的领域。

So the idea that "a calorie is a calorie" is wrong?

记者：那么“卡路里就是热量”的说法就是错的了？

As far as I'm concerned that's how we got into this mess. If a calorie is a calorie, the solution is eat less and exercise more. Except it doesn't work. And the reason is that fructose is toxic beyond its caloric equivalent, so if you consume it instead of glucose you get more of a negative effect even if the calories are the same. It's important that people recognise that the quality of our diet also dictates the quantity. In addition, "eat less" is a really crappy message that doesn't work. "Eat less sugar" is a message that people can get their heads around.

勒斯蒂格：据我所知，这个说法就是让我们走入怪圈的根源所在。如果卡路里就是热量的话，那么我们的办法就是少吃多锻炼，但实际上减肥效果不明显。原因在于，在超过了人体的热量平衡之后，继续摄入果糖是有害的，因此即使在卡路里相同的情况下，如果你消耗的是果糖而不是葡萄糖，你就会受到副作用的影响。重要的是，人们应当认识到我们饮食的质量也决定了饮食的数量。另外，“少吃”确实属于那种根本不起作用并误导人信息。“少吃糖”才是人们应当在大脑中形成的概念。

Why do we consume so much sugar?

记者：我们为什么要吃掉那么多糖呢？

One reason is that it's addictive. The food industry knows that when they add fructose we buy more. That's why it's in everything. There are five tastes on your tongue: sweet, salty, sour, bitter and umami. Sugar covers up the other four, so you can't taste the negative aspects of foods. You can make dog poop taste good with enough sugar. In essence, that is what the food industry has done.

勒斯蒂格：其中一个原因是糖可以使人上瘾。食品工业的人知道，食品中添加果糖越多就越好卖。这就是为什么果糖无处不在的原因。你的舌头可以感知五种味道：甜、咸、酸、苦还有鲜。甜味可以掩盖其它四种味道，因此有了甜味，食品中其它让人不爽的味道你就感觉不到了。所以只要糖的用量足，臭鱼烂虾都可以摆上桌。从根本上讲，这正是食品工业正在做的工作。

You say that sugar is a chronic toxin. Why?

记者：你说糖是慢性毒药。为什么？

We have three levels of toxins: things like cyanide where one part per million will kill you; arsenic and lead where 30 to 50 parts per million kills you; and toxins where high doses of thousands of parts per million can kill you. A lot of the last category are nutrients, for instance vitamin A, vitamin D and iron. Well, fructose falls in that category.

勒斯蒂格：我们已知有三种类型的毒素：一种是氰化物类，1ppm的氰化物便足以致人死命；第二类是砷和铅，30-50ppm可以致命；第三类是那些数千ppm的剂量可以杀人的毒素。第三类中有许多毒素属于营养素，例如维生素A、维生素D和铁。我要告诉你，果糖便属于第三类毒素。

You think fructose should be regulated. Why treat it differently to vitamin D or iron, say?

记者：您认为果糖摄入量应当加以控制。那么为什么把它和维生素D或铁区别对待呢？

The difference is that for vitamin D and iron there is no abuse potential. With fructose there is. We don't regulate toxic substances that aren't abused. We don't regulate abuse substances that are not toxic, like caffeine. Where we get excited is where we have toxic substances that are also abused like cocaine, ethanol, heroin and nicotine. Well, fructose is a toxic substance that is also abused. By that analogy, we ought to regulate it.

勒斯蒂格：区别在于维生素D和铁不会出现滥用的情况，而果糖则不然。我们不会去控制那些根本不会被滥用的有毒物质；我们也不会去控制那些被滥用的但无毒的物质,比如说，咖啡因。我们只对既有毒又被滥用的物质有兴趣，比如可卡因、乙醇、海洛因和尼古丁等。没错，果糖就属于我们感兴趣的这类物质。以此类推，我们应当控制它的使用。

Do you think sugar regulation will happen?

记者：您认为人们会限制糖的摄入量吗？

Obviously, no one is ready to do that. The question is how much more metabolic syndrome and diabetes do we need to see before we consider changing that policy? That's a decision for policymakers, but they can't make the decision without the science. I'm supplying the science.

勒斯蒂格：很显然，没有人可以下定决心。问题是在我们考虑改变饮食习惯之前，我们还要准备看到多少代谢病综合症患者和糖尿病人呢？这是一个需要决策者做的决定，但是如果没有科学依据的话，决策者们也做不了任何决定。在这里告诉大家，我就是提供科学依据的人！